Curse

spiritofcat · Aug 15, 2005, 09:57 AM // 09:57

As to shatter enchantment killing the invincimonks, I'm an E/Mo invincimonk, and I can take on one or two mesmers at a time. Shatter enchantment only takes out the most recently cast spell, which for me is usually healing breeze, which has such a short recharge time that it's hardly a problem.
The real killers for me are the necros that can remove all your enchantments at once, or the mesmers with conjure phantasm. Since phantasm deals in pips and not actual damage, protective bond/spirit does little to nothing against it.

TideSwayer · Aug 15, 2005, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat Tabby

I dont know how anyone can take satisfaction out of using the invincimonk builds; whatever variation. It envolves no skill; it is a trick and nothing more; the worst player could pull it off if you gave him the build and basic instructions; I might even go so far as to call it a cheat. Also; they screw up the game for the rest of us; the drops in the crystal desert are awful now; and you cant go 2 metres without 10 scarabs jumping out of the sand - more anoying than a threat; Anet please help us get rid of this build.

You would be better served asking ANet to give a crap about people that actually want to play this game rather than asking them to remove the things that fans of it actually enjoy about it. The main problem of PvE right now isn't builds like this or the fact that farming spots/builds exist in the first place. It's that ANet has yet to come to an understanding that people LIKE to be able to walk around their world and not feel like they've wasted their time on it. I do not like henchmen stealing my damn drops. Worse yet, I don't like that ANet never thought for a SECOND to even tell the players travelling with the henchies what specific drops they even get. It's so lame. Seriously. If the henchies are getting something I want to know WHAT it is, not be completely ignored.

So ANet doesn't want to increase drops across the board for players? Fine. How about adding in more scrolls (like the XP scrolls), such as one that reduces the ratio of drops & gold that computer players in a party get to the human players in it. Seems like a PERFECT idea for a scroll to me. Of course that is also why ANet hasn't thought of it yet - because at the same time it is a new item in their world and it helps alleviate one of players' main concerns about the game. No point in adding depth to a shallow pool, right?

The developers create this cool scroll trader that allows you to purchase items that break the existing rules of this game and right now there's only one rule that can be broken: XP. Okay. What about a scroll that adds an extra tick of health or energy regen for 10 minutes or so? +5 armor? Invincibility to bleeding for a few minutes? Stuff like that would be a lot more interesting to carry around in your backpack than 8 million stupid monster bodyparts.

It is possible to make farming difficult and still allow it. People go to these areas over and over and over and over and over because the rest of the world is a giant waste of freakin' time and space. There's an easy way for ANet to make allowable farming that also encourages the players to actually go out and explore the world that right now is too lame to even walk around in. All they have to do is change the drops & mobs in certain areas every couple of weeks. What's a farming spot this week may not be next week, but instead some random mobs/zones in some other area which previously were not giving good drops all of a sudden give a goldmine. The key is to NOT tell the players which areas get unfarmable and refarmable. Make us actually have to form teams and go out and find these (always changing) farm spots. The idea is that eventually farmed mobs are going to run out of loot (from being continuously killed by players), but monsters in other areas who aren't getting killed continuously over this time build up their stashes over time or are overrun by refugee mobs from old farming areas, looking for a new place to be able to survive in.

ANet wouldn't put something like that in their world though. Too much work to maintain and god forbid their world ever gets something dynamic in it such as this. This is the kind of thing the game should've had in the first place. An overworld that seems like it is full of life and not one that is a programmed anti-botter. Players would eat this idea right up. You'd actually see farming parties form in cities rather than naked dancing all day by the water fountain.

Protheus · Aug 15, 2005, 10:07 AM // 10:07

In PvE you are with a party - henchman or players - so when you venture the World and you kill monsters and they drop why not devide them acros the hencman... they are "players" too so in my opinio they should also get the dropps.

And yes they should randomize the farming location/drop locations. What is a farming location today maynot be tomorrow.

Why are we all in to the dropps - what ANet should create are more difficult quest - maybe several stories on ingame characters with there own problems and misery.

Gwenhywar · Aug 15, 2005, 11:24 AM // 11:24

To all the complainers about 55 smiter monks - I have tried UW countless times with a "normal" protection/healer monk build, various teams, and I just couldn't cope anymore with the idiots, jerks, and incompetent kids not listening to others or going AFK 2 mins after we enter UW. When I finally got my superior runes and could enter UW alone, I was SO RELIEVED. Finally I could just take my time to explore places my groups couldn't even get to, and take pictures to my heart's content cos noone was rushing me, no stupid ele was charging into aataxes thinking he can tank, no macho warrior was making sexist comments, etc ...

I LOVE hunting in groups. Drops in UW suck so badly that it's nothing but the shrill of killing tough things and exploring for me (found a whopping 1 ecto on 3 UW runs yesterday

). If I can make a team of guildies and the other reliable people from my friends list, I'd go for that instead of solo smiting anytime, but it isn't always possible since Europe usually gets favor late in the night, if ever. But joining a random PUG for UW is 95% guaranteed frustration and loss of time - so why bother?

Gwenhywar · Aug 15, 2005, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat Tabby

I dont know how anyone can take satisfaction out of using the invincimonk builds; whatever variation. It envolves no skill; it is a trick and nothing more; the worst player could pull it off if you gave him the build and basic instructions;

Sure you don't need much thinking and skill coordination for griffons. But before saying 55 smiting involves no skill, go ahead and try solo a big batch of aataxes and darknesses. Then go try to kill a few of those maelstrom casting drakes that are guarding smite crawlers ... the ones someone earlier posted are impossible to kill for a lone smiter. Yes, they ARE killable (although they are a major pain).

to all the callers for nerfing - if ANet had not intended for people to invent builds like this, they would not have put -HP items into the game free for anyone to acquire. From which follows that they DID intend something like this will eventually be invented.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 15, 2005, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Protheus

In PvE you are with a party - henchman or players - so when you venture the World and you kill monsters and they drop why not devide them acros the hencman... they are "players" too so in my opinio they should also get the dropps.

They DO get a fair share of the drop & gold. That's why farmers go alone - if they bring even just one hench, they get only half the drops.
I think many complaining about "nerfed drops" are comparing how much they got soloing around Ascalon to playing with 7 henches in the desert. After all, 7 henches = 1/7th of the drops = you hardly get any drops at all.

Quote:

And yes they should randomize the farming location/drop locations. What is a farming location today maynot be tomorrow.

I've wondered why not a percentage of monsters are random (within reason - no ice golems in the desert!). That would screw with the bots.

Quote:

Why are we all in to the dropps - what ANet should create are more difficult quest - maybe several stories on ingame characters with there own problems and misery.

Ah, another PvE'er. I salute you. It's refreshing to hear someone who don't think the "PvE is just a tutorial for PvP", and instead wants more PvE. I had started thinking there weren't any around except me.

Well, FWIW, things like what you suggest could be added without too much difficulty, but I think it's unlikely to happen to any significant extent, because I don't think fleshing out the story and characters is part of, perhaps not even compatible, with ANets vision for the game.

Silmor · Aug 15, 2005, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhywar

to all the callers for nerfing - if ANet had not intended for people to invent builds like this, they would not have put -HP items into the game free for anyone to acquire. From which follows that they DID intend something like this will eventually be invented.

That's rather crooked logic, don't you think? It seems obvious that -HP properties on runes and handhelds exist as a balancing mechanic, which is evident from their invariably better stats aside the health loss (superior runes vs. minor runes are a fine example of this). You sacrifice your own durability for other perks, plain and simple. Protective Bond and Protective Spirit however turn this reduced durability into an -improved- durability if not just one of such items is used, but if -five- superior runes are used on an armour (including one duplicate, I'm sure ArenaNet planned for that as well?).

Sure, there will be people more succesful with this build than others, but the sheer popularity of it shows how readily carbon-copyable it is - the protective bond core of each build variety just removes most of the normal concerns you'd face.

For those people who say the PvE's lack of removal is to blame, please, think a little. ArenaNet went out of its way to randomly include enchantment removal pretty much everywhere on the map to stop bots or farmers (regardless of what they claim, the latter seems more evident based on their actions), and it obviously didn't work.

That means there's options for ArenaNet if they want to address this: add in even more enchantment removal everywhere, which will make things a little more difficult for farmers, but seriously screws over people trying to rely on modest use of enchantments for their builds, such as for instance a W/E trying to use conjure on his weapon.

Or they can address those enchantments that are actually actively dumbing down the game from the player side, in the case of protective bond/protective spirit by abusing the lowered health mechanic. I don't see why just because people greedily exploit these 55/105 monks someone else needs to pay the price for their behaviour, we've seen enough of that already.

Dragou Du Porzan · Aug 15, 2005, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhywar

To all the complainers about 55 smiter monks - I have tried UW countless times with a "normal" protection/healer monk build, various teams, and I just couldn't cope anymore with the idiots, jerks, and incompetent kids not listening to others or going AFK 2 mins after we enter UW. When I finally got my superior runes and could enter UW alone, I was SO RELIEVED. Finally I could just take my time to explore places my groups couldn't even get to, and take pictures to my heart's content cos noone was rushing me, no stupid ele was charging into aataxes thinking he can tank, no macho warrior was making sexist comments, etc ...

I LOVE hunting in groups. Drops in UW suck so badly that it's nothing but the shrill of killing tough things and exploring for me (found a whopping 1 ecto on 3 UW runs yesterday

). If I can make a team of guildies and the other reliable people from my friends list, I'd go for that instead of solo smiting anytime, but it isn't always possible since Europe usually gets favor late in the night, if ever. But joining a random PUG for UW is 95% guaranteed frustration and loss of time - so why bother?

I couldn't agree with you more. I'm very sorry that there's a vocal subset of the Guild Wars community that is offended by the monk solo build, but personally I'm thrilled with it and my enjoyment of the post-main plot arc PvE game has increased dramatically since I began using it. There seems to be concern over the idea that monk soloers have an unfair advantage obtaining gold over others. I won't speak for anybody else, but for myself I'm not in it for gold or items, nor even ecto (though actually being able to work towards Fissure armor is an admittedly nice bonus). What I'm in it for is the adventure. I've been able to reach areas in the Underworld that I never even sniffed in numerous PUGs. Whole new areas are being opened up to me that likely would have remained largely inaccessible without the monk solo build.

As far as being a "cheap" build or a "carbon copy" build that anyone could run, I would submit to you that while it may be relatively easy to use the monk solo template to tank some Aatxes or Smites, it's another thing entirely to tweak it and perfect its usage such that you can defeat Dryders, beat a 10k quest, work your way through the NR-spamming Behemoths, and start exploring undead territory where they DO shatter enchantments. Of course there's little incentive to do this if you're only in it for quick profits, but many of us use the monk solo build to further our PvE experience instead of as a get-rich-quick scheme.

Yes, it's a shame when you can't find a monk for your PUG, but don't blame the monk solo build. Being a monk in a PUG is often a thankless task, and there were often monk shortages before the solo build became common knowledge. I'll admit I haven't sniffed a PUG since I began running this build. Nerfing the build won't bring me back into the PUG fold, though. I've gone down that road enough to know I'd prefer journeying with those individuals I've come to trust and respect in game rather than take my chances with 7 other strangers, especially when just one bad apple can end the trip before it has even begun. To those who do enjoy PUGs, more power to you. I would never dream of knocking you for giving it a go; please extend me the same courtesy with my preference for exploration.

And at the last: this idea that this is build is a cheap "exploit" that was never intended by the devs. The arrogance of the people espousing this really strikes me. Let me ask this question: is there anyone here decrying this build who has a direct line of access to even one GW developer? I'm pretty sure the answer is, "No." The fact is none of us end users know if ANet has a problem with this build. The build has been common knowledge now for a month or so. In that time there have been numerous tweaks and fixes made by the devs, and none have altered the functionality of the build. Now that doesn't necessarily mean that a future nerf isn't in the works, and if a nerf does indeed get handed down then I guess we'll have our official answer on how the devs feel. Until that time, however, it'd be nice if people would hold off on tossing around the "exploit" tag. Share your feelings for or against the build by all means, but let's not pretend that we know what the developers are thinking.

Silmor · Aug 15, 2005, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Regardless of how harmless you think it is, and how harmless every user thinks it is, it's being made into a problem by the sheer numbers of people using this. At some point, ArenaNet will have to act, because not everyone in the PvE player base is willing to make a Mo/x or an E/Mo to achieve anything of significance (the typical 'if you can't beat them, join them' idea), and people will leave over this. And I sure as heck hope they don't implement some measure that mostly affects those who have nothing to do with this build, like they did on previous occasions.

You can argue that nobody really knows what the developers want for Guild Wars, but if you designed a multiplayer game based around teamwork, would you want it to turn into a shallow thing where one build dwarfs all other builds, and even most other teams? People getting better from using an exploit seem to always claim that if what they're doing is possible, it's clearly also condoned, and never ever look beyond themselves to see how their behaviour affects those around them. It's a single-player attitude in a multi-player game.

I use the 'abuse'/'exploit' label because protective bond at 55 health and 17 protection prayers is an incredibly elaborate and specific setup using a negative balancing property as its power to create a precise, uniquely potent effect used for something that is impossible to achieve by normal means. As far as PvE is concerned, the setup is unbalanced to the point where it dumbs down the game. For many new players, Underworld and Fissure of Woe are regarded as ultimate challenges to work towards. Being able to decently solo those places is a slap in the face of their goals for the game, so I think ArenaNet has every reason to take this PvE imbalance seriously.

Phades · Aug 15, 2005, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroLion

Please stop the hyperbole. In a balanced game, healing needs to trump damage. Just as enchantment removal needs to trump enchantment. What you and everyone else that complaining about so called these "invinci-monks" forgets is those same skills the monk uses in PVE are also used in PVP.

Wong. Mitigation, deflection and redirection need to trump damage, not removal (aka healing). A greater emphasis on disruption and debuffing couldnt hurt either, but those skills are a bit behind the recycle curve versus the amount of offense available. This is just like how non-natures renewal enchantment removal is way behind the curve for monk enchantments. This would be ignoring ranger renewal methods of course. At which point all bets or off basically.

shrevid · Aug 15, 2005, 01:55 PM // 13:55

It seems that everyone is missing the point of this argument. The bottom line is this: Anet WILL find a way around this. Why not just milk it for as long as possible? It's only a matter of time before some genius finds another exploit to take advantage of, and then all the crybabies will have something else to whine about because they didn't think of it first.

Silmor · Aug 15, 2005, 02:03 PM // 14:03

And that's all Guild Wars is about, right. Milking these kinds of things for long enough until they're stopped. Thanks, shrevid.

AeroLion · Aug 15, 2005, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Wong. Mitigation, deflection and redirection need to trump damage, not removal (aka healing).

I knew someone was eventually going to say that. I was being overly broad in my use of "healing" to include mitigation, etc ie. anything that trumps damage is healing. Next time, I'll be more specific.

asdar · Aug 15, 2005, 02:34 PM // 14:34

The really sad part to all of this discussion is that if everyone that wants a nerf gets what they want the ultimate result will be fewer monks.

Don't get me wrong, I'm with everyone saying this is completely unbalanced.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be rebalanced, just that when it is rebalanced people will drop playing a monk fast.

gou · Aug 15, 2005, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Nerf 105 monk build and another will replace it, restoration/mist form ele or perhaps the w/mo zealots fire soloers that constantly stream out of ember light camp and the as-yet-undisclosed aura of the lich necro. What about the 4 man teams of trapper rangers that never even take a hit in uw?

Leaving the aside the "fun" part of being self-sufficient, ultimately builds like this are driven by one thing: drops or the lack there of.

The arrogance of those who carbon copy and claim glory is perhaps the biggest issue with most people, not the methods.

Dazzler · Aug 15, 2005, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorlin

"they aren't immune to defeat. 1 shatter enchantment and its game over and you cannot be ressed."

Good point. But since you can almost always pick your fights in GWars you can become defacto invulnerable.

So, which do you all think would be better to combat this issue: adding more enchantment removal abilities to more areas of the game and thus lowering the power of the build, or altering the synergy of the skills involved so that build doesn't have the power it does when used against creatures that can't remove enchantment? The first route effects everyone in the game but requires less rebalancing, the second only effects the people using the changed skills buts possibly causes an inbalance somewhere else.

NO!!! to the enchantment removal proposal! So many areas have been nerfed by adding enchantment removal that it removes the fun of the game for all non-farmers! I play a healing monk and I love to cast Healing Seed and Healing Breeze. And I run with Divine Boon on so that 1 Heal Other is good for about 300 points of healing. I get so sick of getting disenchanted wherever I go. Adding enchantment removal to every area of the game makes about 1/3 of the skills in the game worthless.

I think the way to fix this skill is to make Prot Bond and Prot Spirit based off of your unmodified max health before any items or runes. That would still make these skills useful, but would totally destroy the 105 build.

Sofonisba · Aug 15, 2005, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Well, I have no problem with folks who wish to solo UW.

The problem I had with the 105 monk who joined our PUG (of mostly guild members) was that he did not reveal his intentions. I was treating the team, so I guess I expect minimal consideration at least. I didn't even care whether he was a smiter or healer or protector--we use them all down there. Just didn't expect the 105.

He kept yelling at us to stay back, out of his aggro circle, he'll do it all. Where is the freaking fun in that? I was bored to tears - I brought my nuker, and I wanted to nuke (finally I did! - against his explicit masterly instructions).

He reminded us NOT to inquire about his build - if we keep asking about it he will leave, and he was "there to help" us. Gee, thanks.

Well, Mr Incredible went off and died in a bunch of Grasping Darknesses and Aatxes. Harrumph. Not so invincible. No one brought Restore Life because he did not tell anyone from the beginning. Most thinking people in PvE bring signet or Rebirth, so he had to leave.

So, we're down a teammate, we end up dying and leaving, thanks for allowing me to waste 1k on your little demo.

Lesson for me is just to ask whether we have a 105 on our hands, and if we do, I will not pay their way. If I wanted to stand around doing nothing, I could do it for free anywhere else but UW.

Dragou Du Porzan · Aug 15, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

People getting better from using an exploit seem to always claim that if what they're doing is possible, it's clearly also condoned, and never ever look beyond themselves to see how their behaviour affects those around them. It's a single-player attitude in a multi-player game.

I have two problems with what you're saying here. First off, I agree that just because the monk solo build is possible doesn't mean it's condoned by the devs. On the other hand, you don't know that it isn't condoned by the devs. But by throwing around the "exploit" label, you're encouraging a global view of 55/105 smiters as "cheaters", or at minimum people playing the game incorrectly. I'd prefer to let ANet make those decisions, not you or any other member of the community. To this point ANet hasn't taken any steps to combat the solo monk build, nor have they issued any statements indicating their displeasure with it. I'll grant you that it's possible something to this effect could come to pass, and if it does I'll be happy to agree with you that 55/105 smiting is an inappropriate way to play (although I'll be sorry that an avenue to enjoying the game will be closed to me). Until then, why don't we keep the discussion to our pro/con viewpoints on the build instead of branding 55/105 smiters as "exploiters" when none of us can know if that's how they're viewed by the devs? After all, when it comes to what constitutes a cheat or exploit it really should be the game's creators who have the final say. The OP had a legitimate enough point about becoming disgruntled when a 55/105 smiter took over a PUG, and that's probably a more reasonable concern to discuss.

My other concern is your statement that GW is a multi-player game. IMO GW can be but doesn't necessarily have to be a MP game. To date I've logged around 700 hours in GW, and I've spent only around 15-20% of that time actually playing with other humans. Most of my time has been spent either solo or grouped with henchmen. And you know what? I think that's great. Not great because playing GW as a SP game is better than playing it as a MP game, but because ANet chose to design GW to accommodate both styles of play. Personally speaking, I've never been able to get into MP-only games. I played in every beta event and was pleased to discover that I could have enjoy GW completely on my own if that's what I wanted to do. The ability to do so factored heavily into my decision to purchase the game. Now there are times when I like to broaden my horizons and group with others, but it's awesome that GW lets me flip between SP and MP with ease. I'm sure the vast majority of GW players approach the game as a MP experience, and that's completely cool. But I don't think those of us who enjoy playing solo should be criticized for our preference. ANet has been clear that they want people to be able to enjoy the game both ways, and the inclusion of AI henchmen speaks to their commitment to making GW a solid SP experience. Now whether the 55/105 smiter is a natural extension of the GW SP experience or a build that goes too far is a seperate topic that's (obviously) open for debate.

stumpy · Aug 15, 2005, 04:44 PM // 16:44

what the hell is with you guys. Who cares if a monk can go off and solo. God I finally found something to keep me from leaving the game. Yes thats right ... the invinci monk farmer is "FUN" to play. After 7 characters all quest all content missions, competitive and team arenas ... this build is one of my only gw outlets to keep me here. Who really cares about disputing over the build. If you have an issue finding a monk in town, alesia the smiter is always there.

I give a lot of the crap away and even more back to the merchant because I would rather be out farming by myself then in say ... Lions Arch. I honestly cant understand why there is just no love in this community. And yet like homer simpson chasing the electricfied donut ... I am back here everyday to read about the next sissy who needs a bottle and diaper. Give it a rest guys and start working proactive as a "elite" community.

Silmor · Aug 15, 2005, 05:17 PM // 17:17

I don't consider them cheaters, actually. This isn't the sort of exploitation like with the 50k ascension fiasco, it is natural use of available tools. I know the term 'exploit' carries a lot of negative weight that is likely what's ticking you off about my posts, but I was using it in the secondary meaning of the word, being "to use or develop something in order to gain a benefit". What people further read in it is not really my concern.

I have nothing against the people using the 55/105 builds, I have something against that which makes the build work: the current implementation of Protective Bond/Protective Spirit. It makes one build significantly better than all others for PvE, which narrows a lot of possible experimentation and versatility in an already braindead (static and flat AI) PvE environment. The masses who are all using it to 'milk it while it lasts' are what make it a problem for other players: they use it to get ahead of other players as far as income and commodity retrieval (such as ectoplasm) is concerned.

As far as my remark about single-player vs. multi-player is concerned, I used it to indicate that even if you adventure by yourself, you're still partaking in an economy with other players. Only being concerned with the looks and bank roll of your own characters/account, oblivious to how your playing style might be affecting other players is what I mean with a single-player mentality in a multi-player game - it's usually a selfish way to play.

This is different from people playing the game by themselves, like you describe. There are many people who solo or use henchmen exclusively playing the game, but in outposts do their part for the community either by partaking in the economy, by helping out others with advice or material support, etc. That would be a multi-player mentality, despite the fact that you don't actual play with multiple players in the game itself.

Finally, I believe the existence of henchmen shows that ArenaNet encourages you to use teamwork in this game. The missions and quests are all designed to challenge teams of a certain size (2-4-6-8), and henchmen are there to fill those numbers if you dislike playing with other people, or can't find anyone available. I don't see this as active encouragement from their side to solo (which is going out on your own, with no team members of any sort along). I fully understand both avoiding players to party with and trying to make the game more challenging by going out on your own, but that has nothing to do with people who use it to 'milk it while it lasts'.